Hi all, I need help 1977 not starting

Pour in a squirt of gas, like a soda bottle cap full in both sides. If you still have nothing, you cant possibly be getting a spark. If you get popping but no quick idle, then you need to look at the points and verify static timing. If it starts and theres an idle and responds to throttle before it dies, then the problem could be in the carbs.

A vacuum leak will cause problems yes. No matter what, if you are getting fuel and spark, you should eventually hear a pop or a backfire of some sort when you kick it over, even if the coil wires are reversed and timing is 180 degrees out.

Its totally a possibility that your battery has no juice.. These bikes need to have a battery to operate and it has to have good volts.

So I've done the gas in the spark plug hole test, on the second kick it ran for half a second or at least tried. I used less than a soda cup per cylinder, about 1ml per cylinder (half a cup) if it makes any difference.

I've checked on ebay and looks like there's a lot of cheap NOS breaker points, ill get a set.
 
Points can be reconditioned. Their performance will degrade no matter what but they wont just outright fail like electronic ignitions, in most cases.

The timing needs to be verified at this point. Theres no point in continuing if this simple task cant be eliminated from potential cause.

Its very difficult to give a diagnosis on the internet lol... Its just that theres no way for any of us to see the work youre doing.

How was the previous owner able to kick start the bike right in front of you, but you werent able to?
 
Points can be reconditioned. Their performance will degrade no matter what but they wont just outright fail like electronic ignitions, in most cases.

The timing needs to be verified at this point. Theres no point in continuing if this simple task cant be eliminated from potential cause.

Its very difficult to give a diagnosis on the internet lol... Its just that theres no way for any of us to see the work youre doing.

was the previous owner able to kick start the bike right in front of you, but you werent able to?

I will check the timing on the weekend.

How was the previous owner able to kick start the bike right in front of you, but you werent able to?
That’s what I can’t understand too
 
So I've started working on the timing, i made a light bulb tester, which turned on on both sides when I began the test, although it was slightly off. When i tried to adjust, i noticed all the screws are completely stripped, so i had to take the plate out and replace some of the screws, which means i know MUST do the timing. I adjusted the gap after reading a watching a ton, the manual doesn't tell much about reinstalling the plate, its mostly adjusting. I now can't get the light bulb to turn on when connected to the left side, (but turns on on the right side) plus I get a little spark from the right side when turning the engine.

What am i missing here or doing wrong ? I

Should the gap be measured when they are most open regardless of the piston position?
When the right one is open, the left one opens too, is the ok?

Also, the gasket broke when i opened the crankcase/generator cover, so waiting for a new one to arrive, but would like to resolve the gap/timing issue before :)

Thanks
 
Points can be reconditioned. Their performance will degrade no matter what but they wont just outright fail like electronic ignitions, in most cases.

The timing needs to be verified at this point. Theres no point in continuing if this simple task cant be eliminated from potential cause.

Its very difficult to give a diagnosis on the internet lol... Its just that theres no way for any of us to see the work youre doing.

How was the previous owner able to kick start the bike right in front of you, but you werent able to?

So I've started working on the timing, i made a light bulb tester, which turned on on both sides when I began the test, although it was slightly off. When i tried to adjust, i noticed all the screws are completely stripped, so i had to take the plate out and replace some of the screws, which means i know MUST do the timing. I adjusted the gap after reading a watching a ton, the manual doesn't tell much about reinstalling the plate, its mostly adjusting. I now can't get the light bulb to turn on when connected to the left side, (but turns on on the right side) plus I get a little spark from the right side when turning the engine.

What am i missing here or doing wrong ? I

Should the gap be measured when they are most open regardless of the piston position?
When the right one is open, the left one opens too, is the ok?

Also, the gasket broke when i opened the crankcase/generator cover, so waiting for a new one to arrive, but would like to resolve the gap/timing issue before :)

Thanks

Any idea what can cause that or where should I look?
 
Get photos so we can see what youre doing. If you remove the bolt the holds the timing cam on, you will see small notches on it. That indicates the high point of the cam. You need to turn the engine in the correct direction and line up the timing cam notches with the point (the dark brown arm that rides on the timing cam surface) you want to check and adjust.

Then you will need to set the static timing. Get the timing plate assembly snug in place, but loose enough to be able to turn it still.

I remove the valve caps for this part so I can just look at the rocker arm to know when the left cylinder is on the intake stroke... Turn the crankshaft in the correct direction until the intake valve closes, continue turning until you line up the LF mark with the notch just above the crankshaft bolt.

When you have the LEFT side set, you can tighten the timing plate to secure it. Now you can set the left side point gap. Turn the engine a couple times to make sure that your test light illuminates when you come to the LF mark on the crankshaft.

The right side can be set only after the left side has been set and the timing plate locked in place. The right side has an additional adjustment for advancing/retarding. The right side is set to open when the crankshaft is on the RF mark.

Double check everything and that will be good enough to start the bike and take an easy ride. You will have to use a timing light to get the timing more precise.

Also, the engine has a tendency to turn over when you are at the timing marks. Dont turn the crank backwards to line it back up again. You must turn the crank again and start over.
 
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Get photos so we can see what youre doing. If you remove the bolt the holds the timing cam on, you will see small notches on it. That indicates the high point of the cam. You need to turn the engine in the correct direction and line up the timing cam notches with the point (the dark brown arm that rides on the timing cam surface) you want to check and adjust.

Then you will need to set the static timing. Get the timing plate assembly snug in place, but loose enough to be able to turn it still.

I remove the valve caps for this part so I can just look at the rocker arm to know when the left cylinder is on the intake stroke... Turn the crankshaft in the correct direction until the intake valve closes, continue turning until you line up the LF mark with the notch just above the crankshaft bolt.

When you have the LEFT side set, you can tighten the timing plate to secure it. Now you can set the left side point gap. Turn the engine a couple times to make sure that your test light illuminates when you come to the LF mark on the crankshaft.

The right side can be set only after the left side has been set and the timing plate locked in place. The right side has an additional adjustment for advancing/retarding. The right side is set to open when the crankshaft is on the RF mark.

Double check everything and that will be good enough to start the bike and take an easy ride. You will have to use a timing light to get the timing more precise.

Also, the engine has a tendency to turn over when you are at the timing marks. Dont turn the crank backwards to line it back up again. You must turn the crank again and start over.

here are some photos of the points, first one is how it was, 2nd is after I reinstalled. I also replaced the left point, the one that now dose not turn the bulb on, I might replace back with old one to test.
 

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Get photos so we can see what youre doing. If you remove the bolt the holds the timing cam on, you will see small notches on it. That indicates the high point of the cam. You need to turn the engine in the correct direction and line up the timing cam notches with the point (the dark brown arm that rides on the timing cam surface) you want to check and adjust.

Then you will need to set the static timing. Get the timing plate assembly snug in place, but loose enough to be able to turn it still.

I remove the valve caps for this part so I can just look at the rocker arm to know when the left cylinder is on the intake stroke... Turn the crankshaft in the correct direction until the intake valve closes, continue turning until you line up the LF mark with the notch just above the crankshaft bolt.

When you have the LEFT side set, you can tighten the timing plate to secure it. Now you can set the left side point gap. Turn the engine a couple times to make sure that your test light illuminates when you come to the LF mark on the crankshaft.

The right side can be set only after the left side has been set and the timing plate locked in place. The right side has an additional adjustment for advancing/retarding. The right side is set to open when the crankshaft is on the RF mark.

Double check everything and that will be good enough to start the bike and take an easy ride. You will have to use a timing light to get the timing more precise.

Also, the engine has a tendency to turn over when you are at the timing marks. Dont turn the crank backwards to line it back up again. You must turn the crank again and start over.

For some reason, it only loaded the first sentence of your reply, "Get photos so we can see what youre doing" so i wasn't sure what and so i shared what i had. I got home and then i saw the complete message.

When you say the bolt that holds the timing cam you mean the one i marked in the photo?
 

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Yes the bolt you marked. Once that bolt is loose, if you pull on the cam it will pull off of the timing weight assembly behind the points plate. This cam also installs 180 degrees off so make note of which way its installed.

Ive installed new points that didnt work out of the box before. The cloth wrapped wires will easily ground themselves to the block or the points cover too, preventing a spark. The Left/right side wires are color coded to the wiring harness.

Its a good idea while youre in there, to remove the timing advance unit and make sure that the cam turns easily and the weights move freely. You may have to disassemble it and clean/ lube it a little so it operates smoothly. This is located by a fixed pin on the camshaft so it only installs one way.

That felt pad should be lightly lubed and riding on the cam. Theres a special lube you should use, Ive used a very small amount of the grease packet that comes with new points. I think thats what its for but I could be wrong. Put it on the leading edge on the felt pad. Too much and it will spit everywhere.
 
Get photos so we can see what youre doing. If you remove the bolt the holds the timing cam on, you will see small notches on it. That indicates the high point of the cam. You need to turn the engine in the correct direction and line up the timing cam notches with the point (the dark brown arm that rides on the timing cam surface) you want to check and adjust.

Then you will need to set the static timing. Get the timing plate assembly snug in place, but loose enough to be able to turn it still.

I remove the valve caps for this part so I can just look at the rocker arm to know when the left cylinder is on the intake stroke... Turn the crankshaft in the correct direction until the intake valve closes, continue turning until you line up the LF mark with the notch just above the crankshaft bolt.

When you have the LEFT side set, you can tighten the timing plate to secure it. Now you can set the left side point gap. Turn the engine a couple times to make sure that your test light illuminates when you come to the LF mark on the crankshaft.

The right side can be set only after the left side has been set and the timing plate locked in place. The right side has an additional adjustment for advancing/retarding. The right side is set to open when the crankshaft is on the RF mark.

Double check everything and that will be good enough to start the bike and take an easy ride. You will have to use a timing light to get the timing more precise.

Also, the engine has a tendency to turn over when you are at the timing marks. Dont turn the crank backwards to line it back up again. You must turn the crank again and start over.

I didnt get to disassemble the cam, but i did replace the new point with the old one and the bulb turned on. I still get a spark from the right point when turning the engine. is this normal? I tried to catch a video of it, but its impossible to stay focused while holding the phone in one hand and turning the engine with the other :)

I removed the bolt and saw the 3 notches, i then turned the engine until the 3 notches were aligned with the left point arm. Should they be aligned regardless of the piston position? Is this where i want to set the gap? if yes, do i need to use the cam marks again in this process or should i close back the bolt at this point?
 

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When you set the gap for the points, all that matters is that the notches are lined up to the point youre trying to set. Thats all the notches are for, to mark the highest point of the cam.

You use the LF/RF on the flywheel to set the static timing. Basically set the crankshaft to LF. Then you use a flathead screwdriver to turn the points plate until your test light turns on. The test light turning on signifies the point opening and the spark plug firing. You use the screwdriver with the little notches on the bottom of the points plate

Spark emitting from the points is somewhat normal, it does occur but should not be constant.

If you points spark a lot then you need a new condenser. Sparks emitting from the points means that the condenser is not absorbing the extra energy from the points, which causes the arcing. This will destroy points rapidly. Even still, you will see a small spark every now and again.
 
When you set the gap for the points, all that matters is that the notches are lined up to the point youre trying to set. Thats all the notches are for, to mark the highest point of the cam.

You use the LF/RF on the flywheel to set the static timing. Basically set the crankshaft to LF. Then you use a flathead screwdriver to turn the points plate until your test light turns on. The test light turning on signifies the point opening and the spark plug firing. You use the screwdriver with the little notches on the bottom of the points plate

Spark emitting from the points is somewhat normal, it does occur but should not be constant.

If you points spark a lot then you need a new condenser. Sparks emitting from the points means that the condenser is not absorbing the extra energy from the points, which causes the arcing. This will destroy points rapidly. Even still, you will see a small spark every now and again.

is it normal that when approaching the LF mark on the flywheel it will just want to spin more (pulling) or that means im not at the right piston position. Right when i reach the F from the LF mark it pulls and spin, not letting me hold it on the mark. i tried with a ratchet and with a breaker bar (no movement both directions) and it just skip the mark (feels like it is being pulled by the weight of it).

This is the only spot where i have the light off, it seems to turn on right when it spins out of my control and passing the mark on the flywheel

Seemed so easy and simple when i was reading about it before, learning the hard why i suppose :)
 
Ive been trying to get the points and timing to work but im having a hard time. My issue is that i can't seem to align the cam notches with the left point arm at the right piston position. I have checked with a straw, thumb, and valves to be sure i understand the piston position. I get the exact opposite of what i want. notches align with right arm on left flywheel mark, and on the left arm with right flywheel arm.

I am attaching photos showing the valves, flywheel, and cam notches location for each side.

What am i doing wrong here? how do i get to "default" the cam notches with the arm?
 

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The 3 notches on the timing cam only serve as the high point to set the point gap. After the gaps are set, you are done with the notches completely.

You will need a test light to set the static timing. You must start with the left side first. Connect the test light to the black metal spring part of the point, ground the light to the engine and rotate the crankshaft. When you approach the LF mark, the light should illuminate at the line. You need to rotate the timing plate to get this as close as you can. Once you have that set, tighten the timing plate and move on to the right side.
 
The 3 notches on the timing cam only serve as the high point to set the point gap. After the gaps are set, you are done with the notches completely.

You will need a test light to set the static timing. You must start with the left side first. Connect the test light to the black metal spring part of the point, ground the light to the engine and rotate the crankshaft. When you approach the LF mark, the light should illuminate at the line. You need to rotate the timing plate to get this as close as you can. Once you have that set, tighten the timing plate and move on to the right side.

Hi Mike, i have a light, and i set it up as you said, but i cant get it to turn off before im reaching the LF mark, the only place it turns on and off is at the point the motor spins himself faster where i dont have control over it. i have attached a video of it, notice at the end how i try to go slow and hold it as i am approaching the LF mark and then it spins out of my control, and the light turns on.

video in the link
 
If the light doesnt turn off my first guess is that the point gap is too big and it never closes. Or you have the points wired backwards. Easy way to set initial gap is to rest the point arm on the low side of the timing cam and give the point some tension so it starts to open and then snug it temporarily. Then line up the notches and set the gap. If I remember correctly I set the gaps to .014" because I dont like 13.

As soon as the point opens, it fires the spark plug. But it also stays open for a while after the LF mark. The continuous, or additional (as in a dual fire ignition) spark is sometimes called a wasted spark. It doubles as a safety to make sure all of the fuel burns.
 
If the light doesnt turn off my first guess is that the point gap is too big and it never closes. Or you have the points wired backwards. Easy way to set initial gap is to rest the point arm on the low side of the timing cam and give the point some tension so it starts to open and then snug it temporarily. Then line up the notches and set the gap. If I remember correctly I set the gaps to .014" because I dont like 13.

As soon as the point opens, it fires the spark plug. But it also stays open for a while after the LF mark. The continuous, or additional (as in a dual fire ignition) spark is sometimes called a wasted spark. It doubles as a safety to make sure all of the fuel burns.

The light turns on and off, i didn't realize the video is private :doh:, i think the video shows the issue, or at least gives a direction. Hope this will help to help me.

here is the public link
 
The timing cam and the point wires could be installed reverse.

When you crank the engine to LF, look for the intake valve to close, this is when the compression stroke is initiated. Keep turning till youre very close to the LF mark. The left side point breaker should be just about at the position where the timing cam starts to ramp up to open the point. If its already open, the timing cam is probably installed 180 degrees off or your timing plate is very advanced.
 
The timing cam and the point wires could be installed reverse.

When you crank the engine to LF, look for the intake valve to close, this is when the compression stroke is initiated. Keep turning till youre very close to the LF mark. The left side point breaker should be just about at the position where the timing cam starts to ramp up to open the point. If its already open, the timing cam is probably installed 180 degrees off or your timing plate is very advanced.


Will it run with a 180 off cam installed? remember, I was riding this bike home.
The fact the bike was running and starting before drives me crazy.
 
I cant seem to find an answer, will it run if the cam is off? I would like to know so i can eliminate some possibilities
Thank you
 
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