groaning noise when cranking

Petew

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I have been working on my 1977 400D and I get the engine to crank and spin freely until it makes a groaning noise like something rubbing against it inside. Could this be a timing issue or should I look at a starter problem....or worse? I wish I could describe it better, it can come and go during the same starter cycle. I have never had any experience with a point ignition since the early 70's so I am grasping at straws here. Suggestions?
 
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I added a video on YouTube that is titled "noise on startup 1977 xs400"
 
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Sounds like the starter clutch slipping or grinding a bit. My 81 does that a bit from time to time but starts right up.
 
I get the same noise on my 80 that I just picked up.......it still starts though.

Also at the same time it almost sounds like compression in the cylinders.

Hell at first reading thought maybe it was you groaning from trying to kickstart it :laugh2:
 
I get the same noise on my 80 that I just picked up.......it still starts though.

Also at the same time it almost sounds like compression in the cylinders.

Hell at first reading thought maybe it was you groaning from trying to kickstart it :laugh2:
Thanks, I think I had the plug out on the opposite side. I haven't done anything to it yet besides testing coils and wires. The noise concerned me a bit. The noise I make is more like a " uuuummmph!"
 
Took a look today at the points and they were closed right down, I couldn't get them to up enough to put anything between them. Add to that, every single screw was just destroyed, I actually had to sharpen a screwdriver blade to use as little chisel to nick the edge of the screw and start them turning. Still not sure whether or not I will keep the points or go Pamco. I don't truly understand fully the process of how to adjust the points.
Another thing I noticed that I hadn't before. When turning the crank with a ratchet it would get to a certain point, likely the top of the lobe, and then drop away without much pressure, a veritable roller coaster going on inside the cases!
 
Points are very easy to adjust and set. Im thinking about making a how-to video.
I know I should be able to do this. I went and bought all new screws for starters. I need to do that. I am also confused as to why I couldn't get them to open at all. I will attack it again tomorrow. Thanks!
 
Hopefully they didnt fuse themselves together as that can happen. I remember the days of VWs and points........
 
No they open, barely. I am of the opinion that the points have worn so much that there is no proper contact with the cam lobe. This does not allow them to fully open. Or, the lobe at the end of the shaft has worn to the point where it doesn't allow the point to ramp up and open.
 
The timing plate has 4 sets of screws. One pair turns the whole assembly. The next pair adjusts the point gap for the left side. The next pair adjusts the clocking of the right side. The final pair adjusts the point gap of the right side. That also seems like the correct order in which to adjust each set of screws..

You can open the points and pull some light sandpaper though to clean the contact surfaces off. New points are pretty inexpensive too. I recently picked up 3 sets just to have them on hand and on the road..

I set my gaps to .014", because the tolerance is .012"-.016", putting .014 right in the middle. I think the old school trick is to use the flap on a book of matches if you don't have feeler gages..

On the 2 sets of screws that adjust the point gap, theres an easy way to adjust them. Next to the top adjuster screw, theres a little nub on the point plate that will allow you to use a flathead to open or close the gap. This way you can keep the set screws snug so they are all loose when you set them.

You need to turn the crankshaft (counter clockwise) until the timing lobe is in the fully open position. There should be 3 little notches on the face of the timing lobe. The screw and washer that holds the lobe on the cam, can sometimes cover these marks so it may be hard to see them.

After you set the gaps, Its time to do a static timing adjustment. After you get static timed, its time to get out the timing light and and finalize timing.

Video coming soon.. Oh, sorry to go off topic. I cant help but try to answer any question I see in a thread sometimes. I will not post anymore about timing here. I will get a video and be done with it.
 
Mike, Thanks for the help. I believe the points were worn too much as they wouldn't open past a certain point on the cam lobe.When they did it was barely opening, certainly nowhere near enough to put a feeler through. I will be replacing them. Your description is perfect and concise. Setting the timing is a part of the process and I thank you. The prior post had turned into a discussion group about 3 different types of ignition systems and how to purchase them when I had asked about the Pamo system, if I change things that will be my choice and I wanted feedback on that. Thanks again.
 
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