Tank rust cleaning

[xs400neophite]

Thanks OnePhate...might go the 'Jasco' route and BB's see where that leaves me.

 

[OnePhate]

No problem. What exactly is the Jasco route?

 

[lhaolpa]

My tank on my '75 dt400 dirt bike was rusted badly and full of crud.I soaked it with hot soapy water,shaking it as much as possible to remove the crud.Then I put diesel fuel,BBs and nuts and bolts,sealed the cap,and put it in my cement mixer.It spun slowly all day,and was clean when I took it to the car wash.I then rinsed it with muriatic acid,then alcohol to remove the water.I use premix in the gas tank so it won't rust again.The same thing can be accomplished with automatic transmission fluid or Marvel Mystery Oil,and will do no harm to the motor.You can shake the tank if you don't have a mixer.You could also be creative with some type of motor setup to turn it. lha

 

[XS-Time]

When I did my tank I used a handfull of drill point screws inside the tank (More sharp corners than BB's) to scrape off the rust flakes. Worked great. The product didn't exist at the time but now i would use Evaporust to get rid of the surface rust. I am amazed at how well it works. Plus it's available at Canadian Tire now.

 

[xs400neophite]

Evaporust you say hmmm? I will look into that.

@OnePhate...Jasco is a rust/metal treatment painters use before priming/painting
on old metal.For instance, if you were painting rusty exterior metal,you would scrape shale and wire brush it,ect. then treat it with Jasco(painters call it pickle juice) for 24 hrs.The jasco turns the Iron Oxide(=rust-not paintable) into Iron Phosphate(=not rust-paintable) overnight.The rust and oxidation turns black.You still should rinse the metal or wipe it down before priming.
I am thinking of using that in my gas tank. I read on here of one other person using this and had good results.

http://www.wmbarr.com/product.aspx?catid=103&prodid=221

If anyone can eloborate on this idea or has experience with it (or is a chemical/scientific engineer hehehe) please advise as I am not 100% committed to this idea but leaning towards it.

 

[lhaolpa]

Evaporust you say hmmm? I will look into that.

@OnePhate...Jasco is a rust/metal treatment painters use before priming/painting
on old metal.For instance, if you were painting rusty exterior metal,you would scrape shale and wire brush it,ect. then treat it with Jasco(painters call it pickle juice) for 24 hrs.The jasco turns the Iron Oxide(=rust-not paintable) into Iron Phosphate(=not rust-paintable) overnight.The rust and oxidation turns black.You still should rinse the metal or wipe it down before priming.
I am thinking of using that in my gas tank. I read on here of one other person using this and had good results.

http://www.wmbarr.com/product.aspx?catid=103&prodid=221

If anyone can eloborate on this idea or has experience with it (or is a chemical/scientific engineer hehehe) please advise as I am not 100% committed to this idea but leaning towards it.

Most of these type treatments are phosphoric acid,which does what you described.You get good results using anything that contains the ph-acid,and it leaves a good surface to prime,paint.I've used it a lot as I was a contractor at South Padre Island Tx,one of the most corrosive environments on earth,as it sits between a very saline bay and the gulf of Mexico.I used many different concoctions,but the common ingredient was ph-acid. lha

 

[xs400neophite]

Ok.. so I went with 'Evaporust' + BBs and it that worked well. All the rust at the bottom of the tank was eliminated and the tank looked great.Where I ran into problems is after washing the evaporust out and after I blew it out with air, the tank began to flash rust really bad. The bottom, where all the rust was, looked much better but at the top near the fill hole the rust was horrible. So I filled it up to the rim with white vinegar and left it for a couple of days.This slowly but completly eliminated all the rust. I drained the tank into a clean 5 gal bucket whith a t-shirt stretched across it,taped so it wouldnt slip,this way I could see what was coming out of the tank. I was suprised at the amount of rust that still came out with this second cleaning.Happy with the results I washed the tank again and put about a gal of water with baking soda in it to nuetralize any acetic acid (white vinegar) still in the tank and washed it out thoroughly.Sadly again when I blew it out,the tank flashed(rusted) although more of a brown tarnish then rust. The metal looked clean but with a light brown tarnish ...ugh!! I poured some Marvelous Mystery oil with gas in to coat the tank,emptied that out, then filled the tank completely with gas.I guess eventually I will need to buy a kit to clean and coat the tank.I guess for now I will just keep the tank completely filled. Bummed.
Is this about the same results everyone else got using this same method?

 

[bcware]

I used purple power rust remover (advanced auto parts carried it here in NH and no one else). It removes rust and chemically converts it. Anything that isn't removed turns black and there is a protective film after treatment. I had to rinse off the protective film with gas because it is gas soluble and gums up the carbs otherwise. No rust has returned after 6 to 8 months. I have never had any issues with flash rusting on anything I've worked on with it.

My advice is to avoid introducing water into the tank for rinsing. Rinse the tank clean with gas or another similar hydrocarbon.

 

[lhaolpa]

You can run a few ounces of auto trans fluid[same as marvel mystery oil]in the gas tank as you would MMO. It won't do any harm,and acts as an upper cylinder lube.It will also impede the formation of rust,if you keep the tank full.In the winter,just start it up and ride around a little,a mile or more to heat the oil and burn off moisture,and it will splash the gas around the tank. lha

 

[cmoore352010]

My father told me when a tank has rust, cleaning it or lining it is only a temporary solution and that it would be better to replace the tank or even having it refabricated.

 

[lhaolpa]

My father told me when a tank has rust, cleaning it or lining it is only a temporary solution and that it would be better to replace the tank or even having it refabricated.

Your dad is probably right,however most people would rather spend [usually]finite resources[money] to buy other things,such as parts to get/keep it running.a new tank,or one that the seller says is "rust free"costs money and all of them are 30+ years old and probably have some rust in them anyway,so if you clean them properly,they'll be rust free as much as possible.I've seen lined tanks give problems after 6 months.as fuel filters clog with pieces of liner leave the victim stranded.My '41 ford tractor's tank was rusted out when I bought it 10 years ago,and I cleaned it out,welded a piece of metal over the hole,and the fuel filters pick up a bit of remaining trash about every 6 months when I clean them,but that's all. I do add about 1 cup of auto trans fluid to a 10 gallon tankful,which keeps the cylinder and chamber clean as can be,and it runs great! lha

 

[cmoore352010]

if i had the knowhow i would definately refabricate the tank. It would save money and give you a practically new tank.

 

[xs400neophite]

@ bcware
...I agree about introducing water into the tank.Not a good idea. Only combustable fluids should go in there. Oh well nothing lost and experience gained.

@Iha
I definately plan to keep the tank full. My father- in- law said wipe the inside with a rag and keep it full. I tried it and wrapped a lint free rag around a longish bottle brush and wiped off some of the rust and it hasnt come back. Im sure there is more I cant see but keeping the tank full....for now is the plan.

 

[lhaolpa]

Remember,fuel filters are your friends,and they work.Your carbs will thank you. lha

 

[kirkn]

I've cleaned at least half a dozen tanks with vinegar - including a couple that had 1/2 inch of sticky, gooey varnish in the bottom.

Fill the tank completely with plain distilled white vinegar (available for $3 a gallon at the grocery store). Let sit for 3 or 4 days. On really bad varnish or rust you may have to dump and repeat.

Once dumped, rinse thoroughly with water (even though the vinegar is MOSTLY water itself). After that, as everyone has noted, the tank will flash rust inside of 10 minutes. So, you have to rinse that water off the steel walls using a quart or so of fresh gasoline or acetone or one of those 'water removal' chemicals from the auto parts stores. I just use a quart of gasoline IMMEDIATELY after rinsing. Put the tank lid on and shake the tank thoroughly and vigorously. Dump the gas (now with water). Done. You can leave the tank empty or full or whatever for MONTHS and not get any flash rust - if you properly rinsed the water.

My Seca tank was done that way and is perfect all these months later. Nice light gray uniform steel color.

Just my own experiences, FWIW.

Kirk

 

[lhaolpa]

That way works well in normal instances where the rust isn't too bad,and would be great,as vinegar is 5-10 percent acidic.My extreme way is for heavily encrusted tanks where removal of lots of crud as well as rust is necessary.To rinse after soapy water,then water,I use a quart of alcohol,then ATF to coat the tank with protectant film. lha

 

[Travis]

I took this from my post on XS650 a couple of years ago, but it's relevant here...

I've used electrolysis with pretty good results. You basically fill the tank with water that has washing soda in it. Use a scrap metal rod to hang down into the tank, and hook it up to a manual battery charger. It basically reverses the rusting process (it's magic ).

Here's a good link for more info on electrolysis:
http://www.motorcycleanchor.com/motorcycle/how_to/mc_tankrust.html

Here's my setup:

The rubber thing is a toilet tank flap that I got at the hardware store for $1. It fits the fill neck of the tank perfectly. The plate and rubber squares are to seal the petcock opening. I use the oval gasket that is on the petcock under the plate and the rubber squares are used as washers to seal between the bolts and the plate. The sacrificial electrode (steel rod) needs to be regular mild steel and not stainless steel. Apparently, using stainless will turn the electrolyte (water and washing soda) into a hazardous material because chromium is released into the solution. It will also turn yellow and not the normal reddish color.

I just mocked this up quick to give you an idea of what it looks like all hooked up. The negative clamp needs a good ground with the tank. You can clamp it to the petcock bolt or the rear mounting tab on the tank if you grind some of the paint off. You need to make sure the metal rod you stick in the tank doesn't touch the tank. The process is somewhat “line of sight” so you want to rod to bend like I have it. You'll also need a manual battery charger for this because "automatic" chargers won't work. Some people say you can hook a battery into the system to make it work better and then you can use an automatic charger, but the manual charger alone works just fine. Make sure the positive is attached to the sacrificial electrode and the negative is attached to the tank.

This is what you want to use, Arm and Hammer washing soda. As far as I know, it's pure sodium carbonate. Don’t use baking soda. It’s not the same. I went to several stores looking for it but the only place I could find it was at the grocery store. You don’t need much. About ¼ cup in the tank should do.

You can use this method for cleaning anything that’s rusty. You can use a plastic bucket and clean rusty tools or parts in it. You’ll still need the sacrificial electrode and the good part needs to be hooked up to the negative clamp. If you’re doing it in a bucket, you can use sheet metal to surround the inside of the bucket to create a large sacrificial electrode since the process is somewhat “line of sight”.

This process is great because it gets rid of only the rust and not any good metal.

Make sure you do this in a ventilated area and check it every few hours. You'll have to pull out the rod and clean it off every now and then. You'll be amazed at how much crap it collects.

 

[kirkn]

Yep - read good things about the electrolysis other than the 'line of sight' limitation.

Good pix.

Kirk

 

[xschris]

Nice write up travis!!

 

[lhaolpa]

You should be able to coat the inside of the tank with zinc or copper to preserve the tank practically forever,or at least for the foreseeable future. lha