You have to have the bike in neutral and not use the clutch while you kick. Get on the bike and push it around to get the tranny moving.
-
Enjoy XS400.com? Consider making a donation to help support the site.
XS400.com receives a small share of sales from some links on this page, but direct donations have a much greater impact on keeping this site going.
1981 XS400 Engine Build: A Story of Pictures, Videos, Beers & Tears
- Thread starter burr
- Start date
burr
XS400 Enthusiast
The amount of things I don't know is slowly decreasing.... Thanks @NewHavenMike will try that soon.
burr
XS400 Enthusiast
Guys,
I'm at a big of a loss here, and getting pretty discouraged about this.
Today's issue is the same as last time. I cannot get the kickstart to turn, or the rear wheel to move at all. I can't roll the bike to get the transmission moving, because the rear wheel won't turn. I can't shift into neutral as @NewHavenMike suggested. It's all goddamn stuck.
I've been mentally going through the options or what is wrong, and I can't figure it out.
Rear brake: Not engaged, so that's not the issue.
Kickstarter: I watched it engage the gearbox sprocket nicely before i installed the right cover, so that's not the problem.
Clutch basket (right side): I was pretty careful about the order I put the clutch plates and friction plates. The steel ball bearing is in there, I made sure.
Gear changer assembly: When i installed it I followed the manual. I mean, the pawls connecting to the gear pins isn't that hard, but maybe I missed something?
Clutch lever: The cable mechanism works. The screw that actuates the pushrod works, too.
Clutch pushrod: There is no "return" action on the cluch pushrod. Should there be? Should there not be? It seems to me that there should definitely be some kind of springyness to the pushrod. For example, when I push it the way in, shouldn't the clutch basket force push back on it? This is an issue I think might be there, but i don't know how to fix it or the effect it's having.
What else can I check? I'm pissed and confused and can't think of a single thing. Genuinely considering a scrap heap for this soon.
God? Are you there?
I'm at a big of a loss here, and getting pretty discouraged about this.
Today's issue is the same as last time. I cannot get the kickstart to turn, or the rear wheel to move at all. I can't roll the bike to get the transmission moving, because the rear wheel won't turn. I can't shift into neutral as @NewHavenMike suggested. It's all goddamn stuck.
I've been mentally going through the options or what is wrong, and I can't figure it out.
Rear brake: Not engaged, so that's not the issue.
Kickstarter: I watched it engage the gearbox sprocket nicely before i installed the right cover, so that's not the problem.
Clutch basket (right side): I was pretty careful about the order I put the clutch plates and friction plates. The steel ball bearing is in there, I made sure.
Gear changer assembly: When i installed it I followed the manual. I mean, the pawls connecting to the gear pins isn't that hard, but maybe I missed something?
Clutch lever: The cable mechanism works. The screw that actuates the pushrod works, too.
Clutch pushrod: There is no "return" action on the cluch pushrod. Should there be? Should there not be? It seems to me that there should definitely be some kind of springyness to the pushrod. For example, when I push it the way in, shouldn't the clutch basket force push back on it? This is an issue I think might be there, but i don't know how to fix it or the effect it's having.
What else can I check? I'm pissed and confused and can't think of a single thing. Genuinely considering a scrap heap for this soon.
God? Are you there?
burr
XS400 Enthusiast
I removed the stator cover and tried manually turning the stator bolt - it turned, but with difficulty. There was a little bit of springyness to it, and I could see the drive sprocket and chain moved just a little bit.
Not sure what that means but at least the drive train isn't actually stuck
Not sure what that means but at least the drive train isn't actually stuck
I would check the clutch basket to make sure the plates aren't hanging up seen that happen a few times on my dirt bikes where the basket gets a lip worn in it and needs taken down or removed so the plates slide freely again and the clutch basket should have pressure to it pushing the rod back to allow the clutch to lock and engage when not expanded and removing pressure from the plates
burr
XS400 Enthusiast
Thanks EthanL. But what do you mean "hanging up?" Do you mean when the friction plates are staying stuck to the steel clutch plates? I made sure to apply oil to each surface before installing, so that would be weird i think. If you could explain in more detail though…
________________________
Just to be clear – your saying the clutch basket is the outer one that engages the Friction plates, right? As in Part #2 in this part diagram? http://www.yamahapartshouse.com/oemparts/a/yam/50042203f8700209bc7874ab/clutch
Also, where on the basket does the lip get worn into it? Unfortunately I didn't take detailed pictures of my Clutch basket
_________________________
Yeah… after thinking about this after my post, i realized it definitely needs some push-back/springyness. Thanks for confirming.
burr
XS400 Enthusiast
After more reading, I think that it may be one of two things.
1. It may be that I have installed the shifter assembly in a high gear. Hopefully I can correct this. I'll drain the oil, remove the right cover, remove the clutch basket, and turning the shift cam manually back to neutral position.
2. Another thing – if it possible that I incorrectly installed the gear selectors and the gear clusters? When i installed they kinda "plopped" into place, and spun around while engaging each other just fine. It didn't seem that the gears could even be installed incorrectly, as long as the forked gear selectors were in pace. However, reading the Haynes manual, Chapter 1, part 36, it says: "Incorrect assembly of gear clusters or selector forks should be looked for. Sluggish gear selection may be caused by incorrect centralisation of the gear selector arm."
The plan tomorrow: manually rotate the gear shift cam to neutral. Hopefully that works. If it doesn't budge, then…
.
_____________
My thoughts are this:
If i can manually turn the stator, which slowly turns the chaindrive sprocket, then it's because I'm getting alot of mechanical advantage due to the large sized drive gear on the clutch drum providing more torque.
I can't get any gearbox motion when attempting to push the kickstarter because the kicker acts on a smaller gear and requires higher torque. Thoughts, anyone?
1. It may be that I have installed the shifter assembly in a high gear. Hopefully I can correct this. I'll drain the oil, remove the right cover, remove the clutch basket, and turning the shift cam manually back to neutral position.
2. Another thing – if it possible that I incorrectly installed the gear selectors and the gear clusters? When i installed they kinda "plopped" into place, and spun around while engaging each other just fine. It didn't seem that the gears could even be installed incorrectly, as long as the forked gear selectors were in pace. However, reading the Haynes manual, Chapter 1, part 36, it says: "Incorrect assembly of gear clusters or selector forks should be looked for. Sluggish gear selection may be caused by incorrect centralisation of the gear selector arm."
Hmmm… did i make a big boo boo? Just thinking out loud, running through the possible causes I have here.
The plan tomorrow: manually rotate the gear shift cam to neutral. Hopefully that works. If it doesn't budge, then…
._____________
My thoughts are this:
If i can manually turn the stator, which slowly turns the chaindrive sprocket, then it's because I'm getting alot of mechanical advantage due to the large sized drive gear on the clutch drum providing more torque.
I can't get any gearbox motion when attempting to push the kickstarter because the kicker acts on a smaller gear and requires higher torque. Thoughts, anyone?
#2 the Pri Drvn Gear is the basket the pressure side or side that takes the most force will be the side with wear the friction and steels should be oiled but make sure you use the proper oil also so you don't break down the frictions or glaze them when they get hot
Atleast take the spark plugs out so youre not fighting compression. You should still be able to get the wheel to turn in any gear as long as the plugs are out.
Your issue may lie in the clutch. Dont get frustrated, just take it all back apart and start over and make sure you read the instructions. This is why I INSIST on having an actual shop manual on hand instead of a phone or some quick notes or one or two printed pages... dirty hands dont work with a phone!
If you are unable to get anything moving inside the engine. You may not be able to select any gears at all. You need to be able to roll the bike in order to jerk the transmission parts just a tiny bit to get them free.
On my bike, I can get it in gear, but I can hardly cycle through the gears without rocking the bike back and forth to get the gears moving a bit.
Your issue may lie in the clutch. Dont get frustrated, just take it all back apart and start over and make sure you read the instructions. This is why I INSIST on having an actual shop manual on hand instead of a phone or some quick notes or one or two printed pages... dirty hands dont work with a phone!
If you are unable to get anything moving inside the engine. You may not be able to select any gears at all. You need to be able to roll the bike in order to jerk the transmission parts just a tiny bit to get them free.
On my bike, I can get it in gear, but I can hardly cycle through the gears without rocking the bike back and forth to get the gears moving a bit.
WoW. Loosing the H-pipe and sticking pods directly to the carbs can cause a piston to melt??
I've read some advice against it, that the bike runs better with the H-pipe... but that it can destroy the enfine if you run it without??
I'm just finishing my bike and left the H-pipe out. I'd thought I'd give it a try and if it doesn't rull well I could always put the H back in... but if it possible to destroy the engine.. well then I'd have to think about this some more, thats not really a risk I was aware off.
I've read some advice against it, that the bike runs better with the H-pipe... but that it can destroy the enfine if you run it without??
I'm just finishing my bike and left the H-pipe out. I'd thought I'd give it a try and if it doesn't rull well I could always put the H back in... but if it possible to destroy the engine.. well then I'd have to think about this some more, thats not really a risk I was aware off.
burr
XS400 Enthusiast
i don't think that was the cause, although I'm a newb. It's more likely that some debris got inside the left carb. otherwise both cylinders would look destroyed.
I wouldn't make the leap to "no h-pipe equals melted pistons."
I'd say putting stupid air filters on and not properly tuning the carbs is asking for trouble.
I'd be curious to find out if the carbs still had stock jets. Changing to pod filters without rejetting the carbs could easily make the bike run excessively lean, meaning hotter, and eventually destroying the motor.
Regardless of filter and carb jetting the bike will run better with the h-pipe.
I'd say putting stupid air filters on and not properly tuning the carbs is asking for trouble.
I'd be curious to find out if the carbs still had stock jets. Changing to pod filters without rejetting the carbs could easily make the bike run excessively lean, meaning hotter, and eventually destroying the motor.
Regardless of filter and carb jetting the bike will run better with the h-pipe.
So what filters fit the H pipe? I just got one running tonight and need to figure everything out.
If there is a local boneyard, don't forget they can can you give you eyes on help.
and small things that you don't want to order on line... can be neat. here in Minnesota we have sportwheels in Jordan, MN. I googled motorcycle boneyard, and found this might be in the Northwest zone. http://www.motorcyclepartswhitecity.com/ They seem to have the same philosophy as far as bone yards go.
and small things that you don't want to order on line... can be neat. here in Minnesota we have sportwheels in Jordan, MN. I googled motorcycle boneyard, and found this might be in the Northwest zone. http://www.motorcyclepartswhitecity.com/ They seem to have the same philosophy as far as bone yards go.
burr
XS400 Enthusiast
Little update from yesterday – I dismantled the clutch basket and played around with the gear selector assembly.
- Turns out I had forgot a thin shim between the pressure plate and the clutch boss (part #168-17428-01-05, or #27 in the catalogue). I also put it all back together with a bit more oil between the friction plates.
- p.s. Does anyone know how to interpret those numbers for washers/circular shim? Can we read off measurements/diameters/thickness like bolts?)
- A tried manually turning the shift cam by using Locking Pliers. Wasn't all that successful, but grabbed the piece just behind the face plate and was able to move one gear just a little bit. I ended up playing around with the Shift assembly, and the adjuster screw/locknut (while crouched over for 2 hours. Ow sweet lord, my back!
) and… - Was finally able to get some shifting, and moved ONE gear with the gear (back and forth) with the shift shaft installed. I think the gears were Neutral and 1st… while in one of the gears, I could spin the rear wheel freely, the other only small amount of rotation.
burr
XS400 Enthusiast
So, let's keep the pics going…
- Pic #1 details where the shift pawls grab the dowels (or actually, where they are BLOCKED with the plate pawl inside). The arrow shows where the upper shift pawl is resting on top of the plate pawl (blocked by the plate pawl from grabbing dowels).
Q#1: Can you determine the gear position from this pic?? If the plate pawl is in the correct position, it seems we're probably in 1st gear because the pawl can't move the shift cam clockwise anymore…
2. Pic #2 is what the plate pawl looks like outside the change drum. There are no pictures of this ANYWHERE (good thing i have that second engine haha). Luckily I found it on the workshop, I didn't pay attention to it first time I disassembled the engine! Hopefully this helps someone else eventually…
3. Pic #3 is one of the ONLY references and detailed pics i could find of plate pawls (part #328-18352-10-00) on other forums. Found it on an RD400c Forum, Link Here. It shows the plate pawl (same part ) inside the dowels, and centered on that Pin in the drum. (FYI this isn't my pic).
So, back to Question #1… is it possible the plate pawl rotated inside the pins/dowels? Doesn't seem likely based on the part's geometry, but I have no way of knowing what the PO did, or if he/she fiddled around.
So, back to Question #1… is it possible the plate pawl rotated inside the pins/dowels? Doesn't seem likely based on the part's geometry, but I have no way of knowing what the PO did, or if he/she fiddled around.
- Before you ask – Yes, I could remove the right-side guides to double check the location of the plate pawl/locating pin. However, the guide's two cross-panhead screws have completely stripped (and i have no dremel). I also can't get a good grip on the flathead countersunk screw holding the front dowel plate down, and don't feel like stripping that screw, too…the countersunk one must be in there super TIGHT (yes, I'm using JIS screwdrivers!)
Attachments
burr
XS400 Enthusiast
Little update.
Will update on what i get from compression test tomorrow.
- Kickstart seems to work just fine, mechanically speaking. Definitely getting some compression, but didn't have my gauge and will test it tomorrow to be sure. I was getting a 'glug glug glug' kind of globby burping sound at the bottom of the kick… anyone know what that means? Is that the carbs' intakes?
- Pistons are definitely moving freely.
- I can only change gears one up and one down still. This might be solved if I could roll around the Bike, as @NewHavenMike suggested …
- Can't get rear wheel to rotate more than a few degrees.
- The clutch lever doesn't release the rear wheel to spin freely. There is good action at the lever, and I've greased the cable and worm gear in the sprocket cover. I even have a small spacer for the clutch cable (outside the sprocket cover) to tighten it up. Gives me good tension at the hand lever, but still no effect on the rear wheel!!!
- I've rebuilt, and rebuilt and rebuilt the damn clutch basket 3 times now (and spilled a fair bit of oil all over the damn workshop floor). Bolts are torqued to spec, pushrod and ball bearing are lubed up, oil in the friction plates, springs have been measured and are within spec, all washers and shims, circlips are perfect, etc. etc.
- So WTF is going on? Why can i not get the rear wheel to spin freely?
Will update on what i get from compression test tomorrow.
Feels like maybe just maybe the shift forks/gears assembly is not catching properly...
burr
XS400 Enthusiast
Urgh yeah I was thinking that's a possibility, but thinking it over I find it hard to see how they could even be installed incorrectly.... Considering the case is all sealed up, bearings are in the guides, etc.
Turn the back wheel until it locks and then try to shift again. At least if its in neutral youll be able to start it while its on the ground.
That noise youre hearing is just an engine that desperately wants to run!
That noise youre hearing is just an engine that desperately wants to run!
